Spanish bank eviction policy - repossession insanity

[Myrtle Hogan-Lance]

This is why one needs a welfare state ..... 

I would argue that what we need is to teach people from a very young age is that privileges are not rights, and that rights are not entitlements.  Rights are balanced by responsibilities - there is no greater or lesser.  (Two sides of the coin!)  Decision making needs to factor these things in.  Further, as I think I kept hammering on about in the thread about that Spanish counselor masturbation video, actions have consequences.  And your parents need to teach you that anything that seems too good to be true is - like taking out a massive mortgage when you know your salary won't service the debt. 

I am very hacked off to have to pay taxes to support people who make bad decisions.  Perikles said something about a more financially secure couple faring better while another family struggles to pay for a family member with Alzheimers in the Sign of the Times thread, as if that were inherently unfair.  NEWS FLASH:  LIFE IS UNFAIR.  And I sure as hell do not want to give up what I have worked very hard for to pay for somebody else with less talent and get-up-and-go who made bad decisions. 

Lest anyone think I am some high and mighty rich bitch looking down at the mere mortals, I will say that OH and I were forced into an early retirement due to his having been retrenched prematurely (old enough to make too much) without enough to see us through even comfortably.  We live on a knife's edge.  BUT - we have not taken financially risky decisions so hope by hook or by crook to make it through.  State assistance?  Not even in our vocabulary as it's how we were raised.  I sincerely hope never to have to change my tune.  But my point is, many people do make bad decisions and now think for some reason I should have to bail them out.  Not so - I've done what I can to not be a burden on others and I don't have a lot of sympathy.  Should I have to give up my pension, live in a smaller house, hock my wedding ring so that profligates, or the terminally unemployed but profligately child producing, can live as well as I can? 

Just got off the phone with a very socialist mate who has become the victim of an attempted shakedown - somebody threatened him with legal action for something he was not responsible for under the guise of 'you know him so you owe him'.  El bullshito. 

Gotta fix dinner now - quite late.

[Nova]

So what do you see as a solution for someone like the disabled woman you linked to?  Should people refrain from signing mortgages or rental contracts at all in case they become disabled and unable to work to pay the rent?  This woman just wants to be able to pay for a roof over her head and her daughter's studies.  Should everyone refrain from having children until they have worked for enough money to support their children to adulthood in the event that they unexpectedly become ill/disabled/die, even if they are in perfect health and financially stable at child-bearing age?  What lessons should this woman have learned when she was younger to avoid the situation she's in now? 

[Myrtle Hogan-Lance]

The woman has unrealistic expectations.  People should refrain from signing those contracts if their income cannot support them. You cannot send your child to private school if your income cannot meet the expenses.  People should refrain from having children until they know they can support them. Somebody should have given her maths lessons in her childhood.  My monthly salary is (example) 1000€.  I cannot spend more than that, and in fact, I should spend significantly less so that I can deal with emergencies. 

Why the fuck should I pay for their idiotic decisions out of my salary???????  Why did I  bother to get an education - so I could pay for the lack of their initiative?  Why did I not take out ££££££££££££ in b-t-l mortgages in favour of the less risky "I have to fund my own retirement" strategy?  Why didn't I have 6 or 7 illegitimate babies I could not afford to feed? Probably because I believe that children deserve a good upbringing with enough food and books in the house.

Jesus H, when will  you guys get the point:  socialism is the stupidest economic system ever imagined?

[Briz]

I would argue that what we need is to teach people from a very young age is that privileges are not rights, and that rights are not entitlements.  Rights are balanced by responsibilities - there is no greater or lesser.  (Two sides of the coin!)  Decision making needs to factor these things in.  Further, as I think I kept hammering on about in the thread about that Spanish counselor masturbation video, actions have consequences.  And your parents need to teach you that anything that seems too good to be true is - like taking out a massive mortgage when you know your salary won't service the debt. 

I am very hacked off to have to pay taxes to support people who make bad decisions.  Perikles said something about a more financially secure couple faring better while another family struggles to pay for a family member with Alzheimers in the Sign of the Times thread, as if that were inherently unfair.  NEWS FLASH:  LIFE IS UNFAIR.  And I sure as hell do not want to give up what I have worked very hard for to pay for somebody else with less talent and get-up-and-go who made bad decisions. 

Lest anyone think I am some high and mighty rich bitch looking down at the mere mortals, I will say that OH and I were forced into an early retirement due to his having been retrenched prematurely (old enough to make too much) without enough to see us through even comfortably.  We live on a knife's edge.  BUT - we have not taken financially risky decisions so hope by hook or by crook to make it through.  State assistance?  Not even in our vocabulary as it's how we were raised.  I sincerely hope never to have to change my tune.  But my point is, many people do make bad decisions and now think for some reason I should have to bail them out.  Not so - I've done what I can to not be a burden on others and I don't have a lot of sympathy.  Should I have to give up my pension, live in a smaller house, hock my wedding ring so that profligates, or the terminally unemployed but profligately child producing, can live as well as I can? 

Just got off the phone with a very socialist mate who has become the victim of an attempted shakedown - somebody threatened him with legal action for something he was not responsible for under the guise of 'you know him so you owe him'.  El bullshito. 

Gotta fix dinner now - quite late.

I think you are being too soft.

Shouldn't we remove all these people and get back to a sound footing.

[Nova]

I'm not having a go at you Myrtle and I understand your stance.  I'm not happy about my taxes going to fund thick lazy girls who keep spawning more thick lazy children who will continue that cycle simply because that's all they're capable of, while the responsible among us who would raise responsible children who would actually contribute to society hold off precisely because we're responsible.  I get that, but that isn't what a welfare state is for.  People can't plan for every eventuality.  Some of the people who took out large mortgages that they can't now afford would have trusted in their banks to suitably assess the affordability for them before lending them the money.  I don't see what's unreasonable about that.

When I got my first graduate job my bank was prepared to lend me 4 times my annual salary for a mortgage on the basis that graduate's salaries were expected to rise faster than other mortgage borrowers.  Again, that sounded perfectly reasonable to a 21-year old, beginning her exciting new career with her shiny new degree and a burning desire for her own home.  Luckily for me I never found the right property, because six months later I was made redundant as a direct result of the September 11th attacks.  What if I had signed up to a mortgage?  I thought I was in a job for life while I was house-hunting.

People do make financial commitments, whether it's mortgage, rent, children, whatever, because that's how people get on in life, but any one of us could suddenly find ourselves disabled or unable to work in some other way at any time, and what then?  I can only afford my rent because I'm working.  If, god forbid, I were to have some horrible accident, I'm at least fortunate that I have parents with a pension that I could go to, but one day I won't have my parents.  What then?  What if there were children involved?  Sometimes through no fault of their own, even with responsible decision-making, people find they can't cope.  That's what welfare is for.

And you didn't actually answer my request for a solution for the disabled woman   

[Myrtle Hogan-Lance]

Nope, doll, don't agree.  You need to be prudent in every single decision you make as an adult.  And it's not my responsibility to maintain the aspirations of every person who made a decision, rightly or wrongly, to go in a particular direction.  Lots of them live better than I do.  I should not be paying for it. I cannot afford a flat screen tv, an iPod, an iPad, or half of the other gadgets deemed necessary in today's world.  It makes me crazy to fund those as well as fags and booze for people who will not work. 

Temporary welfare is okay.  That's how I define 'welfare'. Short term.  That would take care of the woman in Valencia.  She clearly signed up to a lifestyle she could not maintain.  I guess you will be surprised to find out I have never done that in my entire life.  So why wonder why I think I and others should not be beholden to maintain her?  Her organ bullshit is just drama.  Let's be clear on my point:  I would never get into that situation.  I am not stupid, nor am I a financial wizard.  But I have never made a decision stupid enough to risk the diligent taxpayer who gets up in the dark and comes home in the dark having to pay for my fucking stupid and unsupportable financial decisions. 

BTW I also am a big fan of 'workfare'.  You want benefits?  Go clean streets.  Clean up trash on the side of the road.  I detest entitlements, and for me that is the most hated word in the English language. 

[Nova]

The point I'm trying to make is that a need for financial help from the state doesn't always arise from bad decisions.  In fact I'd wager that most genuine, as in non-fraudulent, non-mick-taking cases are the result of factors outside the person's control.  Disability is a prime example of this.  You say of the woman in Valencia "She clearly signed up to a lifestyle she could not maintain".  It doesn't clarify in the article at what point she became disabled, but she feasibly could have been well able to support a lifestyle of one child and €400 rent before her disability.

I have iGadgets as you all know.  Why shouldn't I?  I work for them.  Yet if disability should strike me those gadgets would be the least of my worries, I'd be more concerned about finding food and shelter.  Maybe I should live as though I'm on the breadline now just in case I become discapacitated in the future, though to be honest, I don't think the 400€ I would save on the iPad would go very far in ten years time if I suddenly face the prospect of total paralysis for the rest of my life.

You can be as prudent as you want and as careful about your decision-making, I'm just proposing that that's no guarantee of self-reliance in the future.

[Guanche]

The lady in Valencia lived with her boyfriend in the flat. The relationship broke down he moved out of the flat that HE owned. It became acrimonious and the ex boy friend want's her out because she can't pay the rent. She receives 425 per month disability allowance and her 21 year old student daughter receives a small orphans pension from the state. The rent is 400€ a month I think (can't remember). So take from that what you will.

I know that some times we take what is written in the press at face value, sadly it very rarely is correct and always one sided.

[Myrtle Hogan-Lance]

Think you guys are both right about the woman in Valencia, in terms of the facts and your representation of them.

If I shacked up with a guy - that means not marrying - and lost out - there is no frigging way I would think I was entitled to have the taxpayer bail me out.

Have a child with someone I was not married to? 

Are you fucking kidding me? 

[Nova]

Except that marriage is no guarantee of stability either.  The husband of a former colleague of mine announced to her on the eve of their baby's christening that he was leaving her for another woman, with twins.  He had run up huge debts that she was left with as well as a tiny baby and no job.  Another former colleague of mine was widowed after a year of marriage.  I think this is for another thread, but these days marriage seems to be worth little more than the paper it's printed on in terms of commitment and stability